Ep 192: Music Literacy for All: Debunking Myths and Embracing Diversity by Odell Zeigler

Odell’s presentation was discussed in a recent Choral Journal article, but not named. This is his side of the story. Find more blogs at Choralosophy.Substack.com

By Odell Zeigler

March 23rd, 2024

In April of 2023, I was fortunate to present “An Unconventional Approach to the Urban Chorus Classroom” at the NAfME Eastern Division Conference, which was held in Rochester, New York. The objective of my presentation is that participants will be able to recognize their own challenges in the urban choral setting and combat them by implementing unconventional or modified strategies to foster music literacy growth and success in their programs. 

My presentation speaks on today’s myths and barriers in urban education related to literacy in music education. I wholeheartedly believe in the mantra that is presented on Choralosophy. Namely, that “literacy is equity.”  I highlight issues new choral directors may experience starting in the urban chorus classroom. Notably, I offer suggestions and pedagogical tips to bring success to their programs. The goal is to highlight music literacy “as a whole” and encourage teachers to give all students access to music literacy instruction. The unconventional part of the presentation speaks about the various routes to engage students in the classical style of choral music if they are unfamiliar with it. It speaks on unconventionality as a jumpstart to the main goal, music literacy. In this manner, we begin to debunk myths and embrace diversity for all learners.

www.sightreadingfactory.com is the best literacy tool on the market today. Enter Choralosophy at checkout to get 10% off memberships for you AND your students!

 While presenting on this topic, several questions were raised during my presentation, and I answered them as they came in instead of waiting until the end of my session. The main reason I decided to take questions throughout my presentation was due to the high level of engagement and passion from teachers from the start.  Teachers were anxious and wanted an understanding of every step within the process in which I have successfully gotten students in the urban setting to learn and grow as musically literate musicians. I took questions as my objective for the presentation was being fulfilled through the participants’ inquisitiveness. 

One particular educator raised several questions about my presentation. This person was concerned that my presentation was too focused on the reading of musical notation and believed teaching music literacy was a white-washed concept. I  responded to each question asked, but I did pose a few questions for him.  A few questions I asked him:

1.       If you can read music, why wouldn’t you want your students to learn to read music?

2.       If you were accepted into a music school, you were taught how to read music and navigate a score, so why shouldn’t we teach it?

3.       Should we stop teaching minority students how to read in elementary school? Is literacy in the general education curriculum fine?

4.        Do you feel the issue with getting all students to read music based on resources, or is it a teacher (pedagogy) problem?  

5. Does the all-state audition rubric in your state only have sight reading as a criterion? How many points is it worth? I have never seen a state rubric anywhere that requires a perfect sight-reading score for students to earn a spot in the all-state choir.  Please direct me to this rubric. 

RyanMain.com is now expanding to a family of composers! Visit endeavormusicpublishing.com and of course, enter Choralosophy at checkout for a 10% discount!

I alluded to the idea that it is not equitable for minority learners not to learn how to read music.   The clinician eventually ran out of questions and agreed to talk after my session. I connected with this person, and we agreed to disagree, and I was confident in a clear path to a resolution. 

At any rate, I was alarmed to see the February 2024 issue of Choral Journal online, which featured an article titled “A Skills-First Approach to the All-State Choir Selection Process,” by Dr. Marshaun Hymon. (Who appeared on Choralosophy to discuss it in Episode 184.) The title grabbed my attention, so I began reading the article. After reading the first paragraph, I quickly identified the author before I jumped to conclusions. After discovering who the author was, I knew the article was about my presentation and my philosophy of music education. 

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 Notably, “A Skills-First Approach to the All-State Choir Selection Process”  is a passable title with fair-to-middle supporting details. The article describes a skills-first approach to all-state choir selection as being broader than sight-reading only. In the author’s redefining attempt, he explicitly states what is already the standard, in which he brings up expressive singing, feeling the rhythm, internalizing the beat, and producing a quality tone. Are these the criteria on the rubric for all state auditions already? Have you ever seen an all-state rubric with sight reading as the only criterion? If this is the case, I agree with the author and everyone who has advocated for removing sight-reading. This makes the supporting points for removing sight-reading frivolous and futile. In addition, I have seen students make it into the all-state choir with less-than-perfect sight-reading scores, so this explains why the skills-first approach is already beyond just sight-reading. If a kid can flawlessly sight-read but bombs the solo audition piece, they will not make it into the all-state choir. Is sight-reading the only reason certain students are not making it into all-state choirs? People arguing for the removal of sight-reading are making a case that it’s a Eurocentric thing, and I want a better understanding as we should try to find a clear path to resolution. My biggest question would be, “Why do we bring up Eurocentrism when it comes to reading music only? Do we consider common core curriculum literacy Eurocentric?  I’ll let you answer the question; however, we strongly encourage our children and students to read well. If they can’t read well, we see the reading coaches and reading interventionists pulling kids out of class to teach them how to read. As parents, we even read stories to them before bed, we may participate in summer reaching challenges at the library, and we reinforce reading after school by documenting reading logs, etc.  

A popular rationalization brought up by some educators is the lack of resources and how students cannot learn and develop literacy skills. I repeat it often and remind everyone that it is a pedagogy issue, not a resource issue. I remember a former teacher in Illinois who talked about teaching students to read music from his hand as his five fingers represented the five lines, and spaces between the fingers represented the four spaces. I often heard this process quoted by a retired choral director in Norfolk, Virginia. In other words, resources were never a hindrance for these teachers, and they ensured their students learned how to read music. I did not share that to say it is an ideal way to teach but to share that where there is a will (good pedagogy, too), there is a way. 

The last point I want to bring forth from the article is learning music before an audition. The author expresses that not all districts can hire vocal teachers or accompanists to help students learn the music before arriving for the all-state audition because of poor funding. The point made here was the most significant substandard point I read throughout the article. Teachers should help students learn the music before all-state; once students’ reading skills develop, they can teach themselves the music, and vocal tracks can be created by “someone” or a music program. 

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The entire article is about Eurocentrism, poor funding, no resources, and sight-reading, but never mentions anything about quality teaching, professional development, or the need for competent teachers with solid choral/vocal pedagogy. Many teachers struggle to teach the skill, which is the bottom line. When we begin here, we will talk less about sight-reading and more about professional development for teachers who do not have the skills to chunk, scaffold, and create a space where critical thinkers consistently engage in higher-order thinking skills and are in the work zone of proximal development.

“What are music educators bickering about? What are we really saying? Don’t we all agree?” I will not dare attempt to be a spokesperson for all. Still, I am finding more and more that several music educators agree, and the various perspectives on music literacy have caused philosophical bickering. What does music literacy mean? Let us separate the compound word “Music Literacy” and define it. Oxford Dictionary defines music as “the art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds to produce beauty of form, harmony, melody, rhythm, expressive content, etc. “Literacy is the quality, condition, or state of being literate; the ability to read and write.” I separated “Music Literacy” as we have dichotomized the two and inadvertently created a national music teacher contest/poll. Interestingly, once we filter through all the perspectives, we quickly realize that we are all on the same page, which ultimately means we are all on the same team. Nobody said we should only read music, and nobody said we should only learn by rote. The issue is creating unspoken polls, and folks are subconsciously voting for one or the other. We must be mindful that both the aural and visual components of music education work concurrently. The common goal is to make the music-making experience a joy for our students and create lifelong patrons of the arts.

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If you think Literacy is Equity, you can wear it!

My music career has been rewarding, and the most rewarding part has been seeing students grow as musicians, singers, and people. I find the most joy in seeing students mature over their time in my program. My passion has been urban education, primarily in settings with families with low socio-economic status. I have discovered that the most talented, resilient learners are in this setting. We must teach literacy to students in this setting. Nevertheless, as we all may agree to disagree, we all agree because learning music by rote and reading music go hand in hand. It is rote before the note, ear before the eye, and sound before the sound, so everyone should start without notation. The notation part starts after and sometimes in conjunction with the aural training. If you already focus more on the aural training, teaching them to read will not be a problem. The inverse cannot happen because students who do not have good aural skills cannot sight-read well.  I would love to see more college professors speak up on this issue!  

Episode 191: Rise Up and Sing with Shanan Estreicher

Queens is one of the most diverse places in the world. How can music serve as a “common language” for diverse students?

This week, I am joined by Shanan Estreicher, a middle and elementary music teacher in Queens, New York. Shanan is also a composer, and songwriter who has found a magic formula to reach the students of a Title 1 school with a constantly in flux student population. The formula includes general music, chorus, songwriting and more to bridge cultural, language and prior knowledge gaps.

In this discussion, Mr. Estreicher and I discuss the challenges as well as the life enriching benefits of teaching at-risk students, as well as the mindset he developed as he began his teaching career hoping for that “dream gig” and discovering that he had the power to build the dream in Queens. Many teachers “burn out” in Title 1 schools, but Shanan provides an inspiring story of how a teacher can make a difference in the lives of kids that desperately need a reason to come to school.

Tune in, and have your thinking stimulated and challenged. Then, weigh in yourself on Facebook in the Choralosophers group or over on choralosophy.substack.com.

Choralosophy presented by Ludus. Visit Ludus.com/choralosophy for the cutting edge in fine arts ticketing and marketing solutions.

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For future rehearsal clips, find me on TikTok, Insta and FB!

www.sightreadingfactory.com is the best literacy tool on the market today. Enter Choralosophy at checkout to get 10% off memberships for you AND your students!

Shanan Estreicher is a composer and songwriter living in New York City. He studied music at the Manhattan School of Music and Aaron Copland School of Music at Queens College.

He has composed orchestral, choral, and chamber music, art songs, and music for theater, TV, and film. His compositions have been performed at Carnegie Hall, featured on NBC, Lifetime, and Fox, and can be heard on Composer Concordance Records (Naxos). As a songwriter, he released five albums as a solo artist and with the alt-country group The Brown Trousers. Shanan has collaborated extensively with Grammy Award-winning producer Brian Forbes and received grants from New Music USA and Queens Council on the Arts.

Enter Choralosophy at Checkout for a 5% discount when you shop for folders, robes and other gear for your choir program! www.mymusicfolders.com and www.mychoirrobes.com

Recent premieres include “A Concordance of Leaves”, a new cantata for choir and baritone soloist with poetry by Philip Metres (Copper Canyon Publishing) by choral director James John, the Queens College Vocal Ensemble, and baritone soloist Andrew Wannigman, “I Laughed So Hard I Cried” by the Overlook Quartet, “All You Shining Stars” by the Brazos Valley Symphony Orchestra featuring multi-genre trumpeter Itamar Borochov, “Songs of Emily Dickinson” by Sarah Shafer (Metropolitan Opera, San Francisco Opera) and the Chamber Orchestra of New York at Carnegie Hall, and various commissions for Composers Concordance and Access Contemporary Music.

As a founding board member of the Chamber Orchestra of New York, Shanan has helped lead the ensemble to international success and acclaim. He served as Co-Artistic Producer for the orchestra’s Naxos recordings of Respighi’s “The Birds”, Ralph Vaughan Williams’s “The Lark Ascending”, Respighi’s “Ancient Airs and Dances”, and Salvatore Di Vittorio’s Symphonies 3 and 4. Shanan has also designed and launched an educational outreach program called Maestro Juniors for the orchestra which brings live classical music performances to title-one schools in New York City.

One of Shanan’s greatest joys is sharing his passion for music with children. For over seventeen years he has taught music at a public school in Queens, NY. The documentary “Rise Up and Sing—The Movie” chronicles his work with the P.S./I.S. 127 Chorus. He is also the founder and director of the Queens County Choral Festival for elementary and middle school students.

RyanMain.com is now expanding to a family of composers! Visit endeavormusicpublishing.com and of course, enter Choralosophy at checkout for a 10% discount!

website

https://www.estreicher.com

Any other relevant links or Social Media pages you would like me to plug for you?

Links to stream or download his new album “A Concordance of Leaves”

https://songwhip.com/queenscollegevocalensemble/shanan-estreicher-a-concordance-of-leaves

Instagram Page

https://www.instagram.com/shanan_estreicher_composer

Receive 10% Discount on your orders at http://www.graphitepublishing.com where you will find the works of Jocelyn Hagen, Eric Barnum, Timothy C. Takach,
Paul Rudoi and MANY more.

Episode 190: Girls Voices Change Too! With Dr. Bridget Sweet

Dr. Bridget Sweet is the first scholar to examine adolescent female voice change through systematic research protocols

This week, we fill in a major gap in programming on the Choralosophy podcast. This is the FIRST episode on the feed diving into research and teaching practice of the female changing voice in adolescence. There will be more to come! But, for this episode I am joined be one of our pre-eminent experts, Dr. Bridget Sweet. “The Larynx is not a vagina.” Bridget advocates that we spend more time teaching kids about the physiology. The kids may giggle when you show a picture of a larynx, but they will get over it.

In this episode we talk about the issues created by the gap in choral music education about this topic and related research, as well as strategies for teachers to address the changes in girls voices and to normalize the experience in the same way we should for boys. We also discuss the realities that teachers face that cause us to focus more on the voice changes of the boys. It gets more of our attention, so often, the girls needs go unaddressed. Part of this occurs with the overly common practice of voice part labels applied to girls at way too early an age. This episode is helpful, challenging and so important!

Dr. Sweet’s Books:

Growing Musicians: Teaching Music in Middle School and Beyond

Thinking Outside the Voice Box: Adolescent Voice Change in Music Education

Tune in, and have your thinking stimulated and challenged. Then, weigh in yourself on Facebook in the Choralosophers group or over on choralosophy.substack.com.

Choralosophy presented by Ludus. Visit Ludus.com/choralosophy for the cutting edge in fine arts ticketing and marketing solutions.

Be Sure to Find Choralosophy on TikTok!

@choralosophypodca

For future rehearsal clips, find me on TikTok, Insta and FB!

www.sightreadingfactory.com is the best literacy tool on the market today. Enter Choralosophy at checkout to get 10% off memberships for you AND your students!
Enter Choralosophy at Checkout for a 5% discount when you shop for folders, robes and other gear for your choir program! www.mymusicfolders.com and www.mychoirrobes.com

Bridget Sweet is Associate Professor of Music Education at University of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign, Illinois. After completing her Bachelors Degree in Music Education at Western Michigan University, Dr. Sweet enjoyed a successful tenure as a middle school choir teacher for nearly ten years. Her interests in adolescent music education intensified during her Masters and Doctoral programs in Music Education at Michigan State University, which contributed to her research focused on characteristics of effective and exemplary middle-level music teachers. Prior to her work at the University of Illinois, Dr. Sweet was Assistant Professor of Music Education at Bucknell University in Lewisburg, PA. At the University of Illinois, Dr. Sweet teaches secondary music education pedagogy, including choral methods and literature, graduate courses in music education, as well as a course focused on the development of healthy practices for all musicians. She is a Licensed Body Mapping Educator through the Association for Body Mapping Education.

RyanMain.com is now expanding to a family of composers! Visit endeavormusicpublishing.com and of course, enter Choralosophy at checkout for a 10% discount!

Dr. Sweet continues to work extensively with adolescent singers as a teacher, clinician, and conductor; she has been invited to conduct middle and high school All-State Choirs and Honors Choirs in many states. Dr. Sweet wrote the books Growing Musicians: Teaching Music in Middle School and Beyond (2016, Oxford University Press) and Thinking Outside the Voice Box: Adolescent Voice Change in Music Education (2020, Oxford University Press). Dr. Sweet’s research interests include middle level choral music education, [assigned at birth] female and male adolescent voice change, musician health and wellness, intersections of LGBTQ+ topics and the music classroom, as well as intersections of motherhood and academia.

Receive 10% Discount on your orders at http://www.graphitepublishing.com where you will find the works of Jocelyn Hagen, Eric Barnum, Timothy C. Takach,
Paul Rudoi and MANY more.

Her research has appeared in publications of Bulletin of the Council for Research in Music Education, Choral Journal, International Journal of Music Education: Research, Journal of Research in Music Education and Update: Applications of Research in Music Education. She has authored chapters within The Oxford Handbook of Qualitative Research in American Music Education (2014) and The Oxford Handbook of Care in Music Education. Dr. Sweet was initiated as a Friend of the Arts to the Sigma Alpha Iota International Music Fraternity (2021). She is a member of the Editorial Committee of the Bulletin of the Council of Research in Music Education, International Journal of Research in Choral Music, Journal of Research in Music Education, and Qualitative Research in Music Education.

The Higher Ed Problems That Shall Not Be Named

“Being able to teach well is treated as a side quest in the Higher Ed world.” an Anonymous conversation with a PhD Music Education Professor. NEW: Find more blogs at Choralosophy.Substack.com

It’s easy to equate a degree with expertise in a lot of fields, but that’s not always the case. There are veteran teachers with bachelor’s degrees whose programs have flourished under their direction, and there are doctoral graduates who might crash and burn stepping into their classrooms. Most of the best experience comes from actively being in the classroom and working with students.

CHRIS MUNCE

MAR 9, 2024

The post above generated a fantastic conversation on Facebook in the “Choralosophers” group. One that included many criticisms and defenses of the ways in which Music Educators, and Educators more broadly are trained. I think it is a conversation that is, and should be, WELL within the bounds of reasonable, professional discourse. Even if it is contentious. It was a respectful conversation, as conversations held by the members of that Facebook group tend to be. Some comments included in this thread were:


As someone with a MM I’ll tell you my degree when a long way in helping me understand music and “theoretically” how I should teach. But my greatest learning moments have been in the classroom at the teacher myself. I think there is massive amounts of value in degrees but none of it matters until you have applied it and seen it’s application in real life.

www.sightreadingfactory.com is the best literacy tool on the market today. Enter Choralosophy at checkout to get 10% off memberships for you AND your students!

Soooooo many mus ed profs haven’t taught in a public school classroom. Soooo many classroom teachers are getting higher ed degrees from these folks. Head scratch…

A true expert can find success in a variety of situations. They have wisdom to know how to proceed through challenges. They have been “there”. They have done “that”. It’s not their first rodeo.

An expert also spends more time empowering others than self aggrandizing. They find meaning and reward through the wins of others within their sphere of influence.

An expert knows enough to know that they don’t know everything. They’re the first to say “I’m not sure”. They’re the last to make assumptions. They are never finished learning.

I think it’s important to understand that PhD vs. classroom teacher are not a hierarchical structure, it’s a symbiotic relationship. Classroom teachers are real work practitioners; researchers try to understand problems and create solutions through a scientific lens. Each should understand their value and strengths and respect the position of the other. Epistime and Techne. Batman and the Joker


As this conversation rolled on, I started to get the sense that there is quite a bit of sensitivity on this issue. Either from classroom teachers who do not feel like their expertise “ranks well,” or from Higher Ed professors understandably defending their place in the ecosystem.

Then, I got a private message from someone who had been reading and wanting badly to comment, but decided a private conversation would be better. For the conversation below, I have called my interlocutor “Prof:”

Prof: I don’t know if I want to wade into the comments and get flamed by my higher ed colleagues….

Being able to teach well is treated as a side quest in the higher ed world –which in an area like education seems antithetical– but that’s the reality. It’s a different career entirely and I’m still coming to terms with that as one of the outliers who spent a significant number years teaching before moving to higher ed. Very few teachers with experience (or a family) are willing to take the pay cut and go MORE into debt for a terminal degree and move locations to teach college, so the vast majority of college professors have 5 or less years of K-12 teaching experience. I tell a lot of people that my PhD didn’t make me a better teacher (because that wasn’t the purpose) but it’s a piece of paper that says I’m pretty good at looking things up and answering questions. Teaching is what I learned how to do before that.

Prof: The more I get into the higher ed world I find there are two types of people who become professors: The kind who want to make music education stronger, change the profession, move us all forward—and those people tend to be good at their jobs (or at least have redeeming qualities) despite a lack of k-12 experience, and then there’s the other type: The ones who couldn’t hack it in a classroom or felt they needed something “higher” because they didn’t get the high school job they thought they were entitled to.

Me: Yep. You have nailed it on the head. And higher Ed people are very sensitive about this. Because they also know it’s real

Me: Third type: activist. No interest in pedagogy or learning outcomes. Just political outcomes

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Prof: Thankfully, that third type, at least from what I’ve observed so far, is rare. And yes, the higher Ed community is incredibly sensitive about that which I understand but you know… Do better

Me: It might be a minority, but it has been growing.

Prof: I really agree with the comment that someone made in the thread, though about a symbiotic relationship because that’s the answer I’m only four years out of the classroom and I already feel out of touch.

Me: I actually think Universities moving toward ONLY hiring with terminal degree contributes to the perverse incentives

Prof: 100%

Me: My expertise and curriculum vitae would not be welcome. A priori. Regardless of my expertise or ability to teach the course. And it would be DUMB for me to get another degree now. (Financially dumb.)

Prof: Yes, Exactly! The politics and higher Ed are so “effed.” I legit looked at K 12 jobs this year because with that extra degree I would make so much more money than what I’m making right now. It makes me really uncomfortable when people treat me like I’m more of an expert now because I have the piece of paper… Do you know how many adjudication gigs I’ve gotten now that nobody ever called me for before? Like my stats class made me a better at listening and rehearsing? There is some fault in the K-12 side too in assuming or treating those terminal degrees that way.

Me: Absolutely. When hiring for our summer institute, I have to play the game too. I know my local colleagues will only push their kids to attend our camp if they see big name collegiate folks. (Now, of course we try to get truly awesome folks and we do.) But it narrows the pool…

Prof: But the flip side to that is like what I said, at the beginning, it’s a different job with a different purpose. Ideally… In my world, I would hire K 12 teachers to be adjuncts for the methods classes and the conducting classes. And the PhD’s can do the research by going in observing and partner teaching in the classrooms

Me: Correct. Which was common 15 years ago

Prof: You can’t just tell them to go re-search because then will get 10,000 more studies on the best way to shave a clarinet reed or something dumb like that

Me: Another reality is that many higher ed folks LIKE the instant deference and respect that you said makes you uncomfortable

Prof: Oh for sure. Especially that category 2 group that couldn’t get it by..being good at teaching

Me: “Thoughts about me sharing this anonymously?”

Prof: Im ok with you sharing that anonymously. But the higher Ed world is VERY small and anyone knowing it’s me could actually hurt my chances at tenure (they solicit outside recommendations from other professors in the discipline) so reputation is critical. —

Me: How do you feel about “degree inflation?” Aka we just have too many PhD/DMA

Prof: hoo boy. Off the record, it feels like a massive pyramid scheme. It’s different at the school I’m at now but the one I graduated from (and many others) rely on grad students to teach classes. They’re not as cheap as adjuncts, but it’s certainly cheaper than hiring full time professors. Like, certain classes are ALWAYS taught by GAs

Me: Right. So partly encouraged BY the universities as cheap labor

Prof: While that’s great for the kids who took my classes because I had experience, the string technique class was taught by my classmate who had never taught anything but private lessons, and they’re encouraged to fill their graduate programs with people who can teach those classes—and not necessarily who can be successful at their own goals. I had two other cohort members who didn’t even make it past the comprehensive exams because they were brought in to do other jobs, not because of their potential to succeed at moving into higher ed.

Prof: I feel like removing the GA aspect fixes a lot of that—the PhD students can just be…students, but then it’s expected that you’ve been an “instructor of record” when you apply for jobs so just being a student isn’t sufficient either. You’re right it’s all about the financials—not about what’s good for the students. If something ends up being good for the students that always just seems like a side benefit

Me: What is your sense about WHY colleagues would be afraid to criticize this system publicly? (You aren’t alone)

Prof: Oh I know I’m not alone. Some of it I think is survivor bias. “I made it so the system isn’t fine but I’ll change it when I get there,” and then you find yourself sucked into it

Me: Right. And too much money invested to get out

Prof: yeah. I’m one of the lucky ones that way. My spouse’s employment situation allowed me to not take out any loans at all, and that is VERY much an outlier situation. Also, that group 2 mentality I think is going away. There’s a balance between teaching the undergrads what we want to see in the profession and what actually exists right now. And some professors are better at balancing the reality with the idealism—usually the ones who spent more time in a real classroom or make an effort to stay connected

Prof: One of the best researchers out there—with a decent amount of impact in the field (especially in terms of policy) is REDACTED who taught I think 8 or 10 years—-but more importantly he’s married to another teacher so his sense of what’s going on outside academia is always grounded in reality

Me: That’s great! So, your overall position is optimistic? Structural problems but getting better?

RyanMain.com is now expanding to a family of composers! Visit endeavormusicpublishing.com and of course, enter Choralosophy at checkout for a 10% discount!

Prof: Yes. And the structural problems are unique to every university and every state, but almost always it comes back to money—as with many other problems in this country.

Me: Right. I don’t know if I agree all of it is getting better. I believe you when you say that more balance is being found between theoretical and practical, but I am not sure the other issue, related to Higher Ed pumping the breaks on incentivizing more and more degrees flooding the market etc is getting better. I think that is getting worse, and will until many schools go under. (Already happening in some places.)

Prof: I don’t disagree with the part about degrees flooding the market getting worse. But, I am definitely witnessing a shift in priorities—the younger generation of professors are not tolerating poor teaching (because we all had that experience ourselves at some point) so I would say the effect on undergrad/new teachers is going to be a net positive.

Prof: The biggest thing holding us back from preparing undergrads properly is not the experience of the professorate but the (again money related) credit caps and curriculum conflicts at the university level or, I’m sad to say it, sometimes the quality of the students who are willing to become teachers

The undergrads coming in right now are kids who were born in an era where all they know is testing and data collection and crisis.

Of course we’ve discussed that before, there’s lots of systemic things that individual faculty can’t control.

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But why I’m optimistic is that all of that is a symptom of much bigger problems that I believe are coming to a resolution, one way or another.

Me: I agree on that as well. Even if part of that resolution is schools going under, and that may reduce the degree inflation…

Episode 189: Can We Meet Kids Where They Are Without Lowering Standards? With Jonathan Talberg

Is “Tough Love” outdated? Or is it the tool of caring parents and educators?

Recently, a “Facebook post dialogue” of sorts went viral amongst music educators between Juilliard professor Geoffrey Keezer and James Falzone. Professor Keezer made a relatively short post related to the problems he is seeing in his teaching position related to reliability and accountability for students. It resonated with thousands of people as it got shared and discussed. But, it kind of had a “kids these days” feeling to it, so not everyone responded sympathetically. Enter, James Falzone. He crafted an essay in response encouraging a much more introspective approach to the very real issue that Professor Keezer was speaking to.

That’s where this episode comes in. I was clued in to this discourse when I saw it shared by this week’s guest, Dr. Jonathan Talberg. Jonathan has decades of experience teaching at the post-secondary level, so I asked him to join me to parse out some nuance in this discussion. We wrestle with questions about “tough love” and “holding students accountable.” How do these ideas mesh with this generation of students and their changing needs, values and sensibilities? And maybe most importantly, how do we navigate all of this while NOT lowering our academic standards?

Tune in, and have your thinking stimulated and challenged. Then, weigh in yourself on Facebook in the Choralosophers group or over on choralosophy.substack.com.

Choralosophy presented by Ludus. Visit Ludus.com/choralosophy for the cutting edge in fine arts ticketing and marketing solutions.

Be Sure to Find Choralosophy on TikTok!

@choralosophypodca

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Recipient of the President’s Award from the California Music Educators Association honoring “extraordinary accomplishments in music education,” Dr. Jonathan Talberg serves as Director of Choral Activities at the Bob Cole Conservatory, where he is conductor of the international award-winning Bob Cole Conservatory Chamber Choir and the CSULB University Choir. Recent career highlights include leading the Chamber Choir to first place at the Austrian Spittal International Choir Festival and the “Choir of the World” competition in Wales. Additionally, he and the choir have performed with groups as diverse as the Kronos Quartet, the Los Angeles Master Chorale, the Pacific Symphony and the Rolling Stones.

A passionate advocate for choral music education, Dr. Talberg is regularly engaged to conduct honor choirs across the US, including numerous all-state choruses, and National Association for Music Education conference choirs. His choirs from Long Beach State have performed in venues throughout Europe and Asia, including the Sistine Chapel, St. Peter’s Basilica, and the Great Hall of the People in China.

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His professional experience includes appointments as Director of Music at the First Congregational Church of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles Bach Festival. He also served as Conducting Assistant to the Cincinnati Symphony and the Aspen Music Festival and as principal choral conductor at Arrowbear Music Camp in Southern California. A past-president of the California Choral Directors Association, he serves as an editor at Pavane Music Publishing, where a choral series dedicated to outstanding quality, collegiate-level music is published under his name. He taught high school choral music and drama for five years before moving into higher education.

Of the many hats he wears each day, the one he is most proud of is mentor to the next generation of choral musicians. Alumni of the Bob Cole Conservatory Choral Studies program are teaching at elementary, middle and high schools, churches, community colleges and four-year universities throughout the country. Scores of alumni are professional singers—in opera, musical theater, choirs, church music, jazz and pop.

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Bob Cole Conservatory choral studies graduates are currently earning—or have finished—their doctorates at some of the finest institutions in the country, including the University of Michigan, the College-Conservatory of Music at the University of Cincinnati, Indiana University, the University of Kentucky, the University of Iowa, the University of Houston, the University of Southern California and UCLA.

Dr. Talberg received his BM in Choral Conducting from Chapman University, where he received the Outstanding Alumnus in the Arts award in 2014. He earned his MM and DMA in Choral Conducting from the University of Cincinnati’s College-Conservatory of Music and completed a post-doctoral fellowship with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Cincinnati Pops, and the May Festival Chorus. His conducting teachers include Roger Wagner, William Hall, Earl Rivers, John Leman and Elmer Thomas.